Rapport fra fakkeltog for fredsprisvinner Machado og Venezuela
0:00 / 47 min
Kapitler
0:00Velkommen/intro
1:43Oslo Freedom Forum med Ola Elvestuen
Reportasje fra Oslo Freedom Forum der venezolansk diaspora og norske støttespillere samlet seg for å hedre fredsprisvinner Maria Corina Machado, med kommentarer fra Ola Elvestuen.
Arne Eidshagen, Ola Elvestuen, Trond Sørensen, Vegard Nøtnæs
8:48Arven etter Chavez
Diskusjon om Hugo Chavez sin politiske arv i Venezuela og hvordan Nicolas Maduro har videreført og forsterket autoritære trekk i styret.
Arne Eidshagen, Nicolas Maduro, Trond Sørensen, Vegard Nøtnæs
11:18Kidnapping og flukt fra paradis
Personlige historier fra venezolanske flyktninger om kidnapping, politisk forfølgelse og flukten fra landet under Maduros regime.
Arne Eidshagen, Trond Sørensen, Vegard Nøtnæs
18:50Født i Norge med hjerte i Venezuela
Samtale med en norskfødt person med venezolansk bakgrunn om tilhørighet, identitet og engasjementet for demokrati i foreldrelandet.
Arne Eidshagen, Trond Sørensen, Vegard Nøtnæs
22:12En historisk kveld foran balkongen
Beskrivelse av den historiske kvelden ved Nobels balkongen der Maria Corina Machado mottok fredsprisen, med stemningsrapport fra fakkeltog og feiring.
Arne Eidshagen, Maria Corina Machado, Trond Sørensen, Vegard Nøtnæs
36:18Tilreisende supportere og stemmesedler i parykken
Historier fra tilreisende venezolanske støttespillere og kreative metoder for å smugle stemmebevis ut av landet for å dokumentere valgfusk.
Arne Eidshagen, Nicolas Maduro, Trond Sørensen, Vegard Nøtnæs
43:40Veien videre uten Maduro
Refleksjoner over hva fremtiden kan bringe for Venezuela og hvilke muligheter som finnes for en demokratisk transisjon etter Maduros regime.
Arne Eidshagen, Nicolas Maduro, Trond Sørensen, Vegard Nøtnæs
46:53Avslutning/outro
Deltakere
Arne Eidshagen · vert
Trond Sørensen · vert
Vegard Nøtnæs · vert
Nevnte personer
Maria Corina MachadoNicolas MaduroOla Elvestuen
Emneord
Transkripsjon
Med tidsstempler
[0:00] And I like Milei. [0:02] Who doesn't? [0:05] Okay, you guys are stars in the podcast [0:07] now. [0:33] Out! [0:36] Sorry for the poor sound quality. [0:38] In the first recording, I didn't want the [0:40] mic to fully cooperate with the background noise, [0:42] so it's a bit messy, but it'll get [0:43] better later. [0:44] I say, I call them in Norwegian, Sofa [0:47] Kommunister. [0:50] Glory, glory, my people. [0:54] Your enemies are coming. [0:55] God is with you. [0:58] You will win. [1:00] I mean, definitely not the New York Times. [1:05] Liberty! [1:06] Liberty! [1:14] Liberty! [1:17] It's very easy to be a communist in [1:20] a free country. [1:21] Try being free in a communist country, and [1:23] then we'll talk about it. [1:25] Can I ask why you're here? [1:27] We're here to support Maria Corina, of course. [1:30] Do you have any thoughts about anti-demonstrations? [1:34] No, I don't. [1:35] We're used to it. [1:40] I've been interested in it every year. [1:42] Have you been here many years? [1:43] Many years, yes. [1:44] In Oslo Freedom. [1:45] Can you briefly explain what you're here for? [1:48] Oslo Freedom Forum is a conference on human [1:49] rights, democracy, but also technology, art, everything. [1:54] It's a conference in Oslo every year. [1:57] It's been here since 2009, and there are [2:01] about 1,500 people in the conference. [2:03] Do you think this is a good Freedom [2:08] Forum? [2:08] I think it's a very good conference. [2:10] I was also on the TV show, and [2:15] I think the committee leaders held a fantastic [2:19] conference. [2:21] They really said everything. [2:22] Ola Elvestuen, Freedom Forum. [2:24] What do you think of the opposition to [2:27] this Freedom Forum? [2:28] It's completely incomprehensible. [2:30] They're going to support the Maduro dictatorship in [2:33] Venezuela. [2:35] This is a very valuable Freedom Forum winner. [2:38] It's about supporting freedom and democracy in Venezuela, [2:43] and it needs stronger international support, because the [2:47] demonstrations that have been against it are quite [2:51] incomprehensible. [2:52] Maduro is already actively used in his speeches. [2:58] In many ways, they're being used by the [3:02] dictator to support himself, and it shouldn't be [3:07] that simple. [3:07] Here we need to support the Freedom Forum [3:10] winner and the fight for freedom and democracy. [3:12] It seems like there's a political dividing line. [3:17] It's the far left, perhaps, which is more [3:23] represented in the demonstrations against the Freedom Forum, [3:26] and which has shown support for the regime [3:28] before. [3:29] This has been a longer problem, that the [3:31] far left in Latin America has supported the [3:35] oppressive regime. [3:37] They've done it in Cuba, in Venezuela, for [3:41] a longer time, in Caracas. [3:43] Here we need a clearer line. [3:47] What we need to support is a development [3:50] of freedom and democracy in Latin America in [3:52] general, and we need to support the process [3:55] and the free elections, even if you disagree [3:58] with who you vote for. [4:00] Do you have any thoughts about... [4:02] There are several leaders from South America who [4:04] are here today. [4:06] Among others, if you listen to NRK, there's [4:09] also the far right president in Argentina, Javier [4:12] Milei, and it's the crazy people who have [4:16] come to support this. [4:17] There are four presidents who have voted for [4:19] me on the right, but there's no doubt [4:23] that all four have voted for free elections, [4:26] and that's the development we need to support [4:29] in Venezuela, and to support it also in [4:34] Latin America. [4:36] There's no doubt that these countries, if you [4:40] look over time, are also in a democratic [4:42] development, and the important thing is not to [4:46] have a very strong position on who they [4:49] are, but to support and hope that there [4:51] will also be free elections in the future. [4:55] We're standing here by the torchlight, hanging outside [4:58] Grand Hotel, waiting for the balcony doors to [5:01] open. [5:02] The torches are burning. [5:03] There's quite a lot of space here. [5:05] Yes, there's a lot of space in the [5:06] hallway, and in the front. [5:09] The torches are burning everywhere. [5:11] This is actually a bit stylish, don't you [5:13] think, Arne? [5:13] I got to see it. [5:16] When I got the news that the peace [5:19] council didn't want to arrange a torchlight this [5:20] year, I saw that it sounded very sad. [5:24] But here it's full of people, and not [5:27] least we're standing up. [5:30] Are you sad to say that the peace [5:32] council didn't make a difference in the world [5:34] at some point? [5:34] No, I agree. [5:36] It's worth underlining liberalism as a movement for [5:42] freedom. [5:43] Freedom, love, freedom. [5:59] Is there a large population of Venezuelans in [6:05] Norway? [6:29] Are there, in general, amongst the Venezuelans, support [6:35] for the peace price? [6:36] Or are you sort of on the other [6:38] side of that? [6:39] No, no, no. [6:39] I am thinking, in general, for most of [6:42] the opinion in Venezuela. [6:45] The majority in Venezuela think that this price [6:50] is very acceptable, in any case. [6:55] Yes, for sure. [6:56] It's a good price. [6:58] It's a good price. [6:59] It's a deserving nominee. [7:00] Yes, for sure. [7:02] It shows that the fighting is still ongoing, [7:05] and we work with the same target. [7:09] It's very important for the Venezuelan population. [7:12] Yes, for sure. [7:12] Do you have any particular reactions to the [7:15] counter-demonstrations? [7:17] Now they're not very present today, but there [7:19] were some demonstrations yesterday against the nomination. [7:24] OK, you know, in any case, we have [7:27] people in favor and people against. [7:31] It's a normal situation. [7:33] And that is democracy, when you can accept [7:35] both sides. [7:37] It's acceptable, but both sides have to respect [7:41] the other side. [7:42] It's the condition for me. [7:44] It's important, but everybody can think according to [7:48] his opinion or whatever. [7:50] But it's OK for me. [7:51] But now we have other demonstrations that support [7:55] the celebration for Maria Corina Machado. [7:57] Yesterday was the other concentration, a parade, for [8:02] encountering Maria Corina. [8:05] But this, for me, is democracy. [8:08] What is your own view on Maria Corina? [8:10] For sure, Maria is a good leader. [8:16] She represents all the opinions for Venezuela. [8:19] Not now, but maybe in the future she [8:23] will be the president of Venezuela as well. [8:25] It's important. [8:27] She is a very good leader and also [8:30] has keeping the spirit and the target for [8:34] the most of the Venezuelan population. [8:36] She is already elected, after all. [8:39] OK, it's El Mundo González. [8:41] You're right. [8:43] It's her proxy. [8:45] Yes, for sure. [8:47] Thank you so much. [8:48] Thank you for giving me the opportunity for [8:50] talking. [8:51] Who are you? [8:56] I am Johan. [8:57] Johan? [8:58] Yes. [8:58] Why are you here today? [8:59] I have lived in Venezuela. [9:01] Oh, you have? [9:02] Yes. [9:02] That's great. [9:03] I have lived there when Chavez had power. [9:07] And I have a good relationship with Venezuela. [9:13] That's why I say that I am extremely [9:18] critical of the regime. [9:21] In your own opinion, for a good reason. [9:24] Yes, for a very good reason. [9:26] Can I ask what you think about the [9:30] demonstrations yesterday? [9:33] Yes. [9:40] Do you have any thoughts about that? [9:43] I have never been to Venezuela and I [9:49] have never experienced living in such a country. [9:55] If I had, I would not have participated [9:57] in such a demonstration. [9:59] This is a joke. [10:00] You are very concerned about getting Maria Machado [10:10] to say that she is keeping a distance [10:14] from the Americans bombing boats. [10:21] This is a total detour. [10:25] Of course she is against it. [10:27] But it is very difficult for her to [10:29] express something that is critical today. [10:34] It's a bit strange to ask people to [10:38] keep a distance from the Piranhas when there [10:39] is a shark attacking you. [10:41] Yes, that's right. [10:42] In Maduro. [10:44] Yes. [10:44] It looks like someone has arrived on the [10:46] balcony. [10:46] It's probably the daughter. [10:48] Yes, it's the daughter. [10:49] Do you have any relationship with Maria Corinna? [10:52] Not at all. [10:54] But do you have any impression of her? [10:55] I think she is a tough lady. [10:58] And I think you have to be if [11:01] you want to be an opponent to the [11:08] regime. [11:08] I think she is smart. [11:11] And I think she is tactically smart. [11:14] But she is incredibly demanding. [11:19] So, may I ask what your name is? [11:21] Ivana. [11:22] Ivana. [11:23] So, I stopped by you because you have [11:25] this beautiful dress in Venezuelan colors. [11:28] Yes. [11:29] Very striking. [11:30] Yes. [11:31] May I ask why you are here tonight? [11:33] Yes. [11:34] Well, I live in Trondheim. [11:36] I moved from Venezuela in 2009. [11:40] And I have lived in this beautiful country [11:43] that has given me education and good working [11:46] opportunities. [11:47] But I had to flee my country because [11:50] of the situation. [11:52] Not only the political, because what I can [11:55] say now looking back is that it's not [11:58] left or right. [11:59] It's just criminal people against defenseless people. [12:03] That's what is happening to us. [12:05] And that's why I had to leave my [12:06] beautiful country. [12:07] Because I come from the northeast Venezuela. [12:11] It's one of the most beautiful areas in [12:15] the Caribbean. [12:15] You cannot imagine how beautiful that is. [12:18] You see the sea and you see the [12:21] green. [12:23] Do you have any impression of the Peace [12:27] Prize winner? [12:29] Oh, yes. [12:29] Do you like her? [12:30] Is she a unifying force for Venezuelans? [12:34] Or is she polarizing like some people are [12:40] claiming these days? [12:42] Well, for me, what I see from her [12:44] is that she's a relentless fighter for democracy [12:49] and for liberty. [12:50] As I say, this is not like polarizing [12:53] or being from this side or this side. [12:57] It's defending your freedom against criminals. [13:01] And she's been fighting for it to a [13:04] level that is indescribable. [13:08] She has sacrificed her family, her career opportunities. [13:13] She's an engineer. [13:15] She could also leave Venezuela, as I did, [13:18] and have a nice job in another country, [13:23] in a free country. [13:23] A better life. [13:24] But she sacrificed everything she had for the [13:29] freedom of Venezuela. [13:31] She could have chosen differently, but she chose [13:33] to fight. [13:34] Yes. [13:35] And to a level that is out of [13:41] anyone can imagine. [13:44] May I ask about your circumstances when you [13:47] left? [13:48] What were the direct causes that made you [13:52] feel like you had to leave? [13:53] I suffered an express kidnap. [13:57] So it's like a situation where people take [14:00] you as a hostage. [14:04] And then it's not like a long, it's [14:07] an express kidnap. [14:08] They have a name for it. [14:09] So it's like a short term. [14:12] It's just to take away your car and [14:15] your credit cards. [14:16] But for a person like me at the [14:19] time, it was something horrible. [14:21] I haven't experienced something like that. [14:22] And it was becoming worse and worse. [14:25] The anarchy in Venezuela is unimaginable. [14:30] Now, what you are describing is back in [14:33] 2009 and before. [14:35] No, that was in 2006. [14:39] Yeah. [14:40] End of 2005. [14:42] But that was kind of the beginning for [14:44] me to say, because I didn't want to [14:46] leave my country. [14:47] If I show you the pictures of where [14:48] I lived in my country, it was a [14:49] paradise. [14:51] It's something like, it cannot get better than [14:53] that. [14:54] It's the Caribbean part. [14:57] You have the mountains, you have the beaches. [14:59] You have all the forests getting into the [15:04] beach. [15:05] So it's like the green and the blue [15:07] combined. [15:07] It's like something that even when I was [15:10] born there, I didn't take it for granted. [15:15] I was thankful every day about where I [15:17] lived and where I was. [15:19] And that's not easy to leave behind. [15:22] No, and I'll grant you, it's worse here. [15:24] No, Norway is extremely beautiful and scenic. [15:28] Yeah, but it's cold and wet. [15:30] It is, but you have the freedom and [15:32] that doesn't have a price. [15:33] She thought snow was like 5 Celsius hot. [15:37] Yeah, I always tell my kids that when [15:40] I was a little girl, I didn't imagine [15:42] that. [15:42] I saw the snow on the TV and [15:45] I thought it was just such a beautiful [15:48] thing. [15:50] Because I was imagining it to be like [15:53] warm in a way, because I had no [15:55] idea. [15:55] I see. [15:56] Can I ask you one more thing? [15:58] So 2006, 2009, that's still Chavez. [16:03] Yes. [16:04] So it seems you left the country under [16:07] the rule of Chavez. [16:08] Yes. [16:08] And it got too bad while Chavez was [16:12] running things. [16:12] Yeah, Chavez destroyed our country. [16:14] He was the first one destroying our country [16:17] and setting the fundament for all these disasters [16:21] that happened afterwards. [16:23] So that was the plan all along, with [16:25] Chavez or without him. [16:27] So the reason I ask is because in [16:29] the debate in Norway, there's a tendency to [16:33] say that Chavez meant well. [16:35] And then Maduro came and everything went to [16:37] shit. [16:38] Well, in my opinion, no. [16:41] In my opinion too. [16:44] And then the facts back up my opinions [16:48] also. [16:49] But it's difficult. [16:51] So I think the Nobel Prize Committee have [16:55] done an extremely well job in kind of [17:03] explaining what happened in Venezuela, how we came [17:07] to this point. [17:09] Because it's difficult. [17:10] It's difficult to explain. [17:12] For sure. [17:12] I talked to a Norwegian politician before and [17:17] he was crystal clear that being against this [17:22] is madness. [17:24] Yeah. [17:25] Because there is no comparison between the two [17:28] sides here. [17:28] It's not sizes. [17:30] It's not sides. [17:31] It's like being free, having democracy. [17:38] I have not been to my country in [17:40] 12 years. [17:42] Because I'm too afraid. [17:45] And even when I have lived in Norway [17:48] for all these years, I still don't feel [17:51] like I am a free person. [17:53] And I haven't been in Venezuela since never. [17:57] Yeah, because you were born here. [17:58] Yeah. [18:00] So what's it like for you as the [18:03] son of a refugee, really? [18:05] Yeah. [18:06] And you've grown up here, you've heard the [18:08] stories from Venezuela, from your native lands? [18:13] Yeah. [18:14] My dad is from Oslo, though. [18:17] Oh. [18:17] Yeah. [18:18] But he also lived in Venezuela. [18:20] Yeah. [18:20] Your father? [18:22] Yeah. [18:23] My father. [18:23] But the thing is that I want to [18:30] see us recovering our freedom and democracy so [18:35] we can at least go on vacation. [18:37] Yeah. [18:38] You're going to show your son the country, [18:40] right? [18:40] I would be proud to see it, but [18:42] not in the case now. [18:44] But now it's... [18:45] Yeah, now it's... [18:46] While those criminals are there, we are not [18:48] going back. [18:49] Oh. [18:50] So may I ask your name? [18:52] David. [18:52] David. [18:53] Yeah. [18:54] So David, as a son of a refugee, [18:58] in reality, you've been born here. [19:03] Yeah. [19:03] You've grown up here. [19:05] May I ask if you feel sort of [19:08] more Norwegian or Venezuelan? [19:10] I feel more Norwegian, yeah. [19:14] Because that is part of the problem, right, [19:16] with this crisis? [19:17] Because I imagine that doesn't feel perfect to [19:21] you. [19:21] No, it's... [19:22] That your son feels Norwegian. [19:24] The reality is that he has lived his [19:26] whole life here. [19:28] But he... [19:30] But at least I'm doing my best to [19:33] teach him the language and to teach him [19:38] the culture. [19:39] So maybe we can go back. [19:41] Maybe he can live some years when we [19:44] recover our freedom. [19:45] Yeah, get to know the country of your [19:48] forefathers. [19:49] And maybe feel more Venezuelan at some point. [19:53] But it's sort of illustrating the evil of [19:57] bad regimes. [19:59] But we are the lucky ones. [20:01] Yeah. [20:01] We are the lucky ones that we... [20:03] In a sense. [20:04] Yeah. [20:04] But you're still oppressed. [20:06] Yeah, it's... [20:07] You can't go back to where you were [20:08] born. [20:09] And your son doesn't even know your country [20:12] of origin. [20:13] No, he's only seen the pictures. [20:14] Yeah, he saw my pictures. [20:16] Yeah. [20:17] Yeah. [20:19] So what are you thinking? [20:21] May I ask how old you are? [20:23] Twelve. [20:23] You're twelve years old. [20:24] Yeah. [20:25] So what's your... [20:29] Do you want to experience Venezuela? [20:32] Do you want to live there? [20:33] Do you want to get to know the [20:34] culture and the language and all of those [20:36] things? [20:37] Yeah, I'd like to go to vacation and [20:39] learn some things. [20:40] I speak Spanish very well. [20:43] Oh, that's cool. [20:44] Yeah. [20:44] That's very useful too. [20:46] Yeah. [20:46] I speak Norwegian. [20:48] That's completely useless. [20:50] I speak all three languages that I know [20:53] very well. [20:54] Yeah. [20:55] I mean, you speak perfect English as well. [20:57] Thank you. [20:57] So that's awesome. [20:59] I did not speak more than one and [21:03] a half languages when I was twelve. [21:05] Well, I think I learned my third language [21:09] like around eight or so. [21:10] Yeah. [21:10] I don't know. [21:12] Now your mother is being taken a picture [21:14] of because of her beautiful dress. [21:16] Yeah. [21:16] She has gotten many pictures. [21:19] Yeah, I can imagine. [21:20] Yeah. [21:21] And she got interviewed by Swedish television. [21:26] By Swedish television, yeah. [21:28] Yeah. [21:28] I'm actually going to steal a picture of [21:31] her also before we leave. [21:33] I do prefer you than Swedish, by the [21:35] way. [21:38] Yeah, those Swedes are bad, huh? [21:39] Yeah. [21:42] So, do you have anything you'd like to [21:45] say about Venezuela that we haven't talked about [21:47] from your perspective? [21:49] Yeah, I don't like that the regime is [21:53] autocratic, communist, whatever you'd like to call it. [21:56] Yeah. [21:57] So, I'd wish to like go to a [22:00] vacation there. [22:02] It seems really nice. [22:05] So, we're in the crowd with a few [22:09] people with beautiful Venezuelan flags. [22:13] Do I take it correctly that you are [22:16] Venezuelan of origin? [22:18] Yes, we are. [22:19] Yes, we are. [22:21] Do you feel proud tonight? [22:24] We feel extremely proud tonight. [22:27] This is an epic moment for us. [22:29] And I live in Norway. [22:32] And I am really proud of the Norwegians [22:35] as well, and Venezuelans, and the whole world [22:38] is now looking at us in Venezuela. [22:42] And this is really an important and historical [22:45] moment for us because we need this attention [22:48] to finally make things happen towards a democratical [22:56] change in Venezuela. [22:57] It is a historical night. [23:01] The support of the Norwegian Institute for the [23:05] Noble has been clear. [23:10] I think there was no space for interpretation [23:14] in today's speech. [23:17] And I think that was very important. [23:19] It was a very beautiful surprise. [23:24] Sometimes institutes can be more diplomatic. [23:28] Today they were clear to the point and [23:31] they went as far as to demand Maduro [23:35] to step down, accept defeat, accept that he [23:39] stole the election and let Venezuelans live in [23:42] peace. [23:44] I was very positively surprised that Amnesty also [23:48] were very clear before. [23:50] Because they have been a little wishy-washy [23:52] on some things here and there. [23:55] They have been a little more political than [23:56] human rights focused, in my opinion. [24:01] But I also, by accident, talked to a [24:03] politician in the crowd before. [24:05] And he was also fully clear about what's [24:08] right and what's wrong in this situation. [24:11] So I was pleasantly surprised by that. [24:15] I think it's been 27 long years. [24:22] And I think finally everybody is clear. [24:25] I think that is due to Maria Corina's [24:27] determination. [24:28] She is a very straightforward leader. [24:31] She has never changed her position. [24:33] She has always led with the truth. [24:37] And along the way many leaders have come [24:40] and gone. [24:41] Maria Corina has always stayed. [24:42] And she finally got the recognition that she [24:45] deserved. [24:46] The Nobel is undoubtedly hers. [24:50] And also part of every Venezuelan. [24:54] I've talked to many people today. [24:56] And they are just eager to tell their [24:58] little part in the story. [25:01] And she inspired all of that. [25:04] I can certainly share in that. [25:06] Because I've also talked to a few Venezuelans [25:08] today. [25:08] And they are unanimous in their support for [25:11] Maria Corina. [25:13] Do you guys have any reaction to the [25:16] sort of counter-demonstrations that took part or [25:20] happened yesterday? [25:23] I think it's a space for both sides. [25:32] But it's important to respect. [25:34] And when it's facts that are so clear. [25:37] And they have presented today. [25:38] As you say, it was clear. [25:41] No room for interpretation. [25:44] Then it's just to go to the right [25:48] side of the story. [25:49] To be at that part where there is [25:52] no more room for autocratical and dictatorial regimes. [25:57] Narco regimes. [25:58] We don't need that. [26:00] We need democracy. [26:01] We need freedom. [26:02] We need love. [26:03] It is clear what is the right place [26:07] to be. [26:07] And the right side to be in this [26:11] chapter of the story. [26:13] I think that they are very privileged to [26:16] be in a country that allows free speech. [26:19] And that they were allowed to tell their [26:22] message. [26:23] I would invite them to check the facts. [26:26] And to actually listen to Venezuelans. [26:28] Instead of buying into misinformation. [26:30] And it's very easy to be a communist [26:34] in a free country. [26:36] Try being free in a communist country. [26:38] And then we'll talk about it. [26:42] I like to say that people don't know [26:48] how is the reality in those countries. [26:51] That communism is everyday. [26:55] I call them in Norwegian sofa kommunister. [27:00] You are out in your sofa and your [27:02] couch. [27:03] Just saying, oh this is wonderful. [27:07] The rigdom. [27:10] Prosperity. [27:10] Is distributed equally. [27:14] No, sorry. [27:15] It's not. [27:17] It is a lot of corruption. [27:20] A lot of things happening that have been [27:22] shown with facts today. [27:24] And then it is very easy to talk [27:27] from a very pleasant place. [27:30] You just have to travel there and see [27:32] the real thing. [27:34] So may I ask, because you live in [27:35] Norway. [27:36] Yes. [27:36] Have you lived here for long? [27:38] Yes. [27:38] 25 years. [27:39] 25 years? [27:40] Yes. [27:41] So do you have an impression of the [27:46] press coverage of Venezuela? [27:49] Is it fair? [27:51] Is it biased? [27:51] Does it give the right picture of how [27:56] you feel as a Venezuelan? [27:58] Or are there some pieces missing? [28:00] Pieces missing the whole way. [28:02] And that is what is difficult. [28:04] For example from Venezuela it is difficult because [28:07] the press is not neutral. [28:13] All the press is shut down. [28:18] Controlled by the regime. [28:20] In Venezuela. [28:21] In Venezuela. [28:22] And here you have this conservative or maybe [28:26] trying to get neutral. [28:29] And then it is difficult for the people [28:33] outside the country to understand the magnitude. [28:37] And then there is a lot of things [28:38] happening in the world. [28:40] And we haven't got any attention as we [28:44] have today. [28:44] So a lot of things happening and they [28:47] are prioritized to another wars or another problems [28:51] in the world. [28:51] And then right now it is the moment [28:53] to show what is really happening through the [28:57] 25 or 27 years up to now. [29:01] So right now we are really showing the [29:04] truth of the situation that we have been [29:07] living for a long time. [29:08] This is not new. [29:11] And you feel that Maria Corina is a [29:14] good representative of the democratic movement in Venezuela? [29:19] Yes. [29:19] Totally. [29:20] And her daughter today, she represents us. [29:24] People that are really prepared to do the [29:27] change. [29:28] And to really just do the right things [29:31] to have a beautiful free country with property [29:37] and good values. [29:38] She represents us. [29:40] I had this like the demonstrations yesterday. [29:44] So one of the front figures were one [29:46] of the high up people in the communist [29:49] party in Norway. [29:51] And you know it is quite predictable. [29:53] But it is also quite pointed that that [29:56] party supported Chavez and the Maduro regime. [30:01] And now the peace price goes to the [30:04] people suppressed by these people. [30:06] And they demonstrate against it. [30:08] And then Maria Corina can't really come here [30:10] on the night because of the danger to [30:12] her life. [30:14] It is quite pointed, I have to say. [30:18] Yes. [30:18] The day after the price, the first peace, [30:26] they closed the embassy in Oslo. [30:31] The Venezuelan embassy in Oslo. [30:33] After they announced the price. [30:36] The embassy in Oslo is closed. [30:38] Maduro's embassy. [30:39] And that affects a lot of people. [30:41] Because it is not only for Venezuelans living [30:44] in Norway. [30:45] But also people from Finland. [30:47] They have to come here to do the [30:48] documentation. [30:49] And now it is closed. [30:50] There is only one embassy in the Nordics. [30:52] In the Nordics. [30:53] I wasn't aware of that. [30:55] And then it is closed. [30:57] The day after. [30:58] As a protest. [30:59] Because they are against. [31:00] That is the way they act. [31:05] I think Norway acted accordingly. [31:11] They offered to be part of the negotiation [31:16] process. [31:17] They helped arrange for the Barbados agreement. [31:24] And they managed to not comply with not [31:28] even one point of that negotiation. [31:31] I think that made it very clear for [31:33] Norway. [31:33] The regime stands on this issue. [31:39] And I think the Nobel Peace Prize is [31:41] a result of that as well. [31:43] It was like the last drop. [31:45] I think we have been denied justice for [31:49] the past 27 years. [31:51] We have gone to the UN. [31:52] We have gone to the International Court of [31:54] Justice. [31:55] We have gone to every instance available. [31:59] For these things not to happen. [32:01] And they have all failed us. [32:02] Today the Nobel recognized our cause. [32:06] Recognized the suffering of every Venezuelan. [32:08] And we will be forever grateful. [32:10] Norway again made history. [32:12] As you did in World War II. [32:14] And we will be grateful again for bringing [32:18] democracy to another part of the world. [32:21] So that is very beautiful. [32:23] And I would like to point out that [32:24] my favorite part of the speech today. [32:26] Was when Anna Corinna said. [32:30] We lived in a democracy. [32:32] We enjoyed the rights. [32:34] But we forgot our duties. [32:36] And that is a reminder for every democracy [32:39] around the world. [32:40] We love our freedoms. [32:42] But they come with a lot of responsibilities. [32:44] And sometimes we take them for granted. [32:48] I have been positively surprised myself by the [32:51] Norwegian government. [32:52] Because like Støre and Bartheide and the foreign [32:57] minister. [32:58] Tends to be a little sympathetic to let's [33:01] say left wing pet causes. [33:03] So you could suspect that they wouldn't be [33:05] as clear. [33:06] And they have been very clear. [33:08] Which is a relief for me. [33:11] No doubt. [33:13] We will be eternally grateful with this. [33:15] And I would like to point something. [33:17] For me it is something that goes beyond [33:19] politics. [33:20] It is something. [33:21] It is just about respect, dignity and values. [33:24] Human freedom. [33:25] Human freedom. [33:26] So it is not about politics. [33:28] And that is the common ground for every [33:30] one of us. [33:31] In every country. [33:33] And that is what we are fighting for. [33:35] Definitely. [33:36] I would invite everybody to learn more about [33:40] Venezuela. [33:41] We have curiosity. [33:42] Yes. [33:44] And I mean this crisis created one of [33:49] the worst diaspora problems in the world. [33:54] In the history of the world. [33:55] And at least something beautiful came out of [33:58] all that struggle. [34:01] Because now you see Venezuelans all around the [34:04] world. [34:05] And in every corner they shine a light. [34:08] For freedom. [34:10] In their jobs. [34:11] And I think we have all been part [34:15] of finally getting to here tonight. [34:17] And that is beautiful. [34:20] It was worth it. [34:21] All the sacrifices. [34:23] Yes. [34:23] I can say from my perspective. [34:24] I am very happy for you guys. [34:26] Thank you. [34:26] That this happened. [34:27] And that there wasn't any counter demonstrations or [34:30] any bullshit. [34:31] Yes. [34:31] I was afraid about it. [34:33] Yes. [34:33] I was very. [34:34] And I am happy that didn't happen. [34:37] And may I ask you one final thing. [34:41] If anyone wants to follow the situation in [34:43] Venezuela. [34:44] From a sort of a neutral perspective. [34:46] Are there any news sources in English. [34:49] Or somewhere you should go to seek out [34:53] this information. [34:54] Well I would invite them to try to [34:56] follow local journalists. [34:59] Obviously they are not in Venezuela anymore. [35:02] They had to leave. [35:03] But try to find Venezuelan journalists around the [35:05] world. [35:06] That tell the stories of the diaspora. [35:10] And ask if you meet a Venezuelan. [35:12] Ask them why they are here. [35:13] Why they are not back at home. [35:16] I think the free press has been doing [35:21] a good job of covering the news lately. [35:27] I think the Wall Street Journal. [35:37] I can't remember. [35:42] I mean definitely not the New York Times. [35:47] Definitely not. [35:48] Yes. [35:49] So try to find local independent media. [35:52] Or independent journalists. [35:54] And usually if you are reading a news. [35:58] Ask are they telling me something. [36:00] Or are they trying to make me feel [36:02] something. [36:03] And if they are trying to make you [36:04] feel something. [36:05] It is usually manipulation. [36:07] So dig deeper. [36:08] This is sound advice. [36:10] Thank you so much. [36:11] Thank you. [36:12] Thank you. [36:14] We are still here. [36:17] Hello again. [36:18] Hello again. [36:20] So interesting to hear the stories. [36:22] So you were telling me about all the [36:25] people coming from different places. [36:27] And a couple of you are not really [36:29] living in Norway. [36:31] May I ask first where you guys have [36:33] come from? [36:34] I have come all the way from Mexico. [36:36] From Mexico? [36:37] Yes. [36:37] Wow. [36:39] Just from Spain. [36:40] From Madrid. [36:40] From Spain. [36:41] That doesn't count. [36:42] I know. [36:44] You should have started with me. [36:46] Yeah. [36:47] Bad dream. [36:48] Bad dream. [36:48] No. [36:49] But as me there has been so many [36:53] other people. [36:54] I read the news about a person who [36:58] did a GoFundMe. [36:59] So she could come all the way here. [37:01] And she made it. [37:03] Another person who came from Japan. [37:05] And had to take many many flights. [37:08] And a journalist that was awarded the opportunity [37:16] to come here to cover the news and [37:18] the event. [37:20] And we have seen political prisoners. [37:22] Not only from Venezuela. [37:24] There is plenty of political prisoners around the [37:26] world. [37:27] From Nicaragua. [37:28] From Nicaragua. [37:29] I met two from Nicaragua. [37:32] Many from Venezuela. [37:34] And also I was very excited. [37:36] I was a little bit star struck yesterday [37:38] when I met Masi Alina Jed. [37:43] And I think her story is amazing. [37:46] And for her to be here. [37:48] And what she told us last night. [37:50] That she had to be here. [37:51] She had to be with Maria Corina. [37:53] That was very exciting. [37:55] So to see the support from all over [37:57] the place. [37:57] I just talked to a Japanese reporter. [38:00] And she came all the way from Japan. [38:02] And she was also very excited to be [38:05] here. [38:05] So every story. [38:07] Everybody telling us the little bits and pieces [38:10] that they did. [38:12] To be able to count all the ballots. [38:15] There was this man that had to hide [38:19] the ballots in his wig. [38:21] Under his wig. [38:23] And he was so nervous and sweating. [38:25] And he was like. [38:25] The ink is going to get ruined. [38:27] The ink is going to get ruined. [38:28] And I was like. [38:29] And these are all the anonymous heroes. [38:31] And to be able to find all these [38:36] different pieces. [38:37] Tell him about the girl who took my [38:39] hat. [38:41] So after the speech we were coming back. [38:44] And she dropped her hat. [38:47] And then this young lady grabbed it and [38:50] said. [38:50] Excuse me ma'am. [38:51] And she turned around. [38:53] And she was like. [38:53] Why are you calling me ma'am? [38:55] So we started laughing. [38:57] And then we started talking. [38:59] Because that's how Venezuelans we are. [39:03] And then we started talking. [39:05] And it got serious. [39:06] She was like. [39:06] This is so important for me. [39:08] You can't tell. [39:10] But my head is covered with bullets. [39:15] Perdigones we say in Spanish. [39:18] And she told me her story of being [39:22] an activist. [39:23] A student activist. [39:25] And being persecuted by the regime. [39:29] And it was just so moving to have [39:32] her. [39:34] To have met her. [39:36] She was there just like one of us. [39:37] Exactly. [39:38] She was just here to be present. [39:42] I think it means so much to so [39:44] many of us. [39:45] And it's personal to everyone. [39:48] How do you guys interpret. [39:51] That there's a few heads of state from [39:53] South America. [39:54] It was Malay. [39:58] Ecuador. [39:58] Panama. [40:00] Honduras. [40:01] No. [40:01] Paraguay. [40:02] And coming here to support the Peace Prize. [40:05] It seems to me. [40:06] Happy with that? [40:07] Yes. [40:07] That was very important. [40:09] Not only happy. [40:09] Grateful. [40:10] Yes. [40:10] Very grateful. [40:12] And also it means a lot. [40:13] Because the freedom of Venezuela. [40:15] Means the freedom of the whole continent. [40:19] When Maduro's regime is over. [40:22] Because it will be over. [40:24] Sooner rather than later. [40:26] Many will fall. [40:28] I think Nicaragua will fall. [40:30] Hopefully Cuba will fall. [40:32] And I think the continent is starting to [40:35] wake up. [40:35] And realize the dangers. [40:38] Of this radical ideology. [40:41] From my perspective. [40:43] As a Norwegian. [40:44] And as a. [40:45] Let's say an avid watcher of news. [40:49] And I like Malay. [40:53] Who doesn't? [40:56] Okay. [40:56] You guys are stars in the podcast now. [41:02] But I mean. [41:03] There was no one from Nicaragua here. [41:05] No one from Cuba. [41:06] No one from Brazil. [41:08] No one from Colombia. [41:09] No one from Colombia. [41:10] First of all. [41:12] Seems to me. [41:13] There's a left. [41:15] Right. [41:16] Somewhat. [41:17] Distinction here. [41:18] Definitely. [41:19] I mean. [41:20] It is. [41:21] It is definitely. [41:23] There shouldn't be. [41:24] There shouldn't be. [41:25] Because this is. [41:26] This is. [41:27] More than. [41:29] This is not. [41:30] We've said it many times. [41:32] This is not about left and right. [41:33] This is about principles and human rights. [41:35] And there should be. [41:36] Human rights. [41:37] Across all political spectrum. [41:40] We've seen a radicalization of the left. [41:43] That I find it very dangerous. [41:45] And it's very hypocritical. [41:46] When you have. [41:48] Protesters in a free country. [41:50] Defending a dictator. [41:52] Who's oppressing people. [41:54] In a not free country. [41:55] So. [41:56] How do you. [41:57] How do you go home. [41:58] And make sense of all of that. [42:01] So it's obviously. [42:03] It's not. [42:04] I don't find it spontaneous. [42:05] I think it is organized. [42:07] And paid for. [42:08] We've seen. [42:10] Reporting from Nate Friedman. [42:11] Where he's exposed. [42:13] Many of the protesters. [42:15] And. [42:17] I. [42:19] I think. [42:20] That we have to open our eyes. [42:22] And understand that this is not. [42:23] This is not spontaneous. [42:25] This is. [42:25] This is strategized. [42:31] So are you. [42:32] Guys. [42:33] Because you have. [42:34] At least you have come really far. [42:36] You've come a way as well. [42:38] Spain. [42:39] Are you staying for a few days. [42:40] Yeah. [42:41] Enjoying the city and all that. [42:42] Until. [42:43] I will stay until Friday. [42:45] Just until Friday. [42:46] Yeah I will stay for a few days. [42:48] Hopefully we'll be able to see Maria Corina. [42:50] So we're excited. [42:52] Yeah I'm staying too. [42:53] I'm trying to be late. [42:55] But I haven't seen him yet. [42:58] Grand Hotel is the place. [43:00] I'm going to sneak in and see if [43:01] I can. [43:02] He's a very interesting. [43:05] Interesting person really. [43:06] Quite the character. [43:07] And he is trying to fix. [43:09] Fix the communist. [43:12] Prior. [43:13] Yeah. [43:14] I mean. [43:14] That's the good thing about communists. [43:17] They make it really easy to fix. [43:18] Yeah. [43:19] There you go. [43:20] It is. [43:20] There's a smart point there. [43:23] But this. [43:24] Is the. [43:25] The. [43:25] The overgang. [43:26] How do you call it. [43:28] The phase. [43:29] The transition. [43:29] The transition is very difficult. [43:31] Right. [43:32] From. [43:32] From. [43:33] Maybe ruins. [43:34] You get the country. [43:36] You have to. [43:36] Repair it. [43:38] And it. [43:38] It takes time. [43:39] Yeah. [43:39] It takes some time. [43:40] So. [43:41] It. [43:42] It won't be easy for Maria Corina. [43:45] To. [43:45] To. [43:46] To make the transition. [43:48] But. [43:48] She have the support of. [43:50] The majority. [43:52] Really. [43:52] And it. [43:53] It was shown. [43:54] In the last presidential. [43:55] Election. [43:56] She have the majority. [43:58] We. [43:58] If the people. [43:59] Outside Venezuela. [44:01] Had the. [44:01] The. [44:02] The possibility. [44:03] Because we didn't have the right to. [44:04] To. [44:05] To vote. [44:06] It will be. [44:07] Triple. [44:08] I mean. [44:08] We had the right to vote. [44:10] But we weren't allowed. [44:11] We weren't allowed. [44:12] Right. [44:12] Right. [44:12] We couldn't. [44:13] They made the impossible. [44:16] So. [44:17] What do you. [44:18] But we were denied. [44:19] Our right to vote. [44:19] Right. [44:20] Yes. [44:20] Denied the right. [44:21] That is the. [44:21] The right. [44:22] Yeah. [44:23] So. [44:23] What do you guys think. [44:24] Are the chances now. [44:26] That. [44:26] The Maduro regime. [44:27] Will fall. [44:28] Sooner. [44:29] Rather than later. [44:30] And. [44:31] That. [44:31] Maria Corina. [44:32] Will get the opportunity. [44:34] We do think. [44:35] That the change. [44:36] Will come. [44:37] Soon. [44:38] But. [44:39] We have to remember. [44:40] That this is an urgent. [44:42] Matter for us. [44:42] We still have. [44:43] Yeah. [44:44] A thousand political prisoners. [44:46] Being tortured. [44:46] Every day. [44:48] So. [44:49] We need to get them out. [44:50] As soon as possible. [44:52] There was this podcast. [44:53] In Norway. [44:54] Yesterday. [44:55] Or the day before. [44:56] Interviewed a Swede. [44:57] That had been working. [44:58] In Venezuela. [44:59] And working along the opposition. [45:02] And he made a few claims. [45:04] That were. [45:04] Let's say. [45:05] Eyebrow raising. [45:07] One of the claims. [45:08] Was that. [45:10] A quarter of a million people. [45:12] Were killed. [45:13] In Venezuela. [45:14] And. [45:15] Not killed by being. [45:17] Strangled with piano wire. [45:19] Starved to death. [45:21] But deliberately. [45:22] Does that sound. [45:23] True to you. [45:24] Does it sound. [45:26] Plausible. [45:27] Or does it sound like. [45:28] Pokerful. [45:30] Well. [45:31] I haven't heard that. [45:32] Podcast. [45:32] But I. [45:33] I heard. [45:34] The title. [45:35] But. [45:36] I think it's. [45:37] A strategy. [45:38] To. [45:39] Oppress. [45:41] People. [45:42] By. [45:42] Starving. [45:43] Doing blackouts. [45:45] The basics. [45:46] Are denied. [45:47] Right. [45:47] That is a way to. [45:49] Dominate. [45:49] Not for party members. [45:51] No. [45:51] Never for party members. [45:53] Of course not. [45:53] That would be silly. [45:54] So. [45:55] That is. [45:56] That is. [45:57] Like a. [45:58] Model. [45:59] Used in. [46:00] A lot of country. [46:01] That one. [46:02] Want to. [46:04] How do you call it. [46:05] The. [46:05] Control. [46:06] Control. [46:06] The people. [46:07] It will be a zombie society. [46:09] As I call it. [46:10] Right. [46:11] Because. [46:12] Your basics. [46:13] Are not. [46:15] Covered. [46:15] Then. [46:16] You don't have. [46:17] Any. [46:18] And it. [46:18] Is like the. [46:19] The. [46:20] The. [46:21] Pyramid. [46:23] Maslow's. [46:24] Pyramid. [46:24] Right. [46:24] Pyramid. [46:25] Yeah. [46:25] When the basics. [46:26] Are not. [46:27] Covered. [46:28] Needs. [46:29] Then you are. [46:30] You don't have. [46:30] Time to. [46:31] Think. [46:32] Or. [46:32] Or like. [46:33] Fight for your. [46:34] Your. [46:35] Rights. [46:35] Or. [46:36] Realizations. [46:37] Or. [46:38] It's. [46:38] It's like. [46:39] The way. [46:39] To control. [46:40] Very easy. [46:40] The way. [46:40] To control. [46:41] The. [46:41] The population. [46:43] Yeah. [46:44] Okay. [46:44] We'll hope. [46:45] For better times. [46:46] But. [46:53] But. [46:55] But. [47:03] But. [47:11] But. [47:12] But. [47:14] But. [47:15] But. [47:18] But. [47:18] But. [47:19] But. [47:20] But. [47:20] But. [47:20] But. [47:20] But.
Ren tekst
And I like Milei. Who doesn't? Okay, you guys are stars in the podcast now. Out! Sorry for the poor sound quality. In the first recording, I didn't want the mic to fully cooperate with the background noise, so it's a bit messy, but it'll get better later. I say, I call them in Norwegian, Sofa Kommunister. Glory, glory, my people. Your enemies are coming. God is with you. You will win. I mean, definitely not the New York Times. Liberty! Liberty! Liberty! It's very easy to be a communist in a free country. Try being free in a communist country, and then we'll talk about it. Can I ask why you're here? We're here to support Maria Corina, of course. Do you have any thoughts about anti-demonstrations? No, I don't. We're used to it. I've been interested in it every year. Have you been here many years? Many years, yes. In Oslo Freedom. Can you briefly explain what you're here for? Oslo Freedom Forum is a conference on human rights, democracy, but also technology, art, everything. It's a conference in Oslo every year. It's been here since 2009, and there are about 1,500 people in the conference. Do you think this is a good Freedom Forum? I think it's a very good conference. I was also on the TV show, and I think the committee leaders held a fantastic conference. They really said everything. Ola Elvestuen, Freedom Forum. What do you think of the opposition to this Freedom Forum? It's completely incomprehensible. They're going to support the Maduro dictatorship in Venezuela. This is a very valuable Freedom Forum winner. It's about supporting freedom and democracy in Venezuela, and it needs stronger international support, because the demonstrations that have been against it are quite incomprehensible. Maduro is already actively used in his speeches. In many ways, they're being used by the dictator to support himself, and it shouldn't be that simple. Here we need to support the Freedom Forum winner and the fight for freedom and democracy. It seems like there's a political dividing line. It's the far left, perhaps, which is more represented in the demonstrations against the Freedom Forum, and which has shown support for the regime before. This has been a longer problem, that the far left in Latin America has supported the oppressive regime. They've done it in Cuba, in Venezuela, for a longer time, in Caracas. Here we need a clearer line. What we need to support is a development of freedom and democracy in Latin America in general, and we need to support the process and the free elections, even if you disagree with who you vote for. Do you have any thoughts about... There are several leaders from South America who are here today. Among others, if you listen to NRK, there's also the far right president in Argentina, Javier Milei, and it's the crazy people who have come to support this. There are four presidents who have voted for me on the right, but there's no doubt that all four have voted for free elections, and that's the development we need to support in Venezuela, and to support it also in Latin America. There's no doubt that these countries, if you look over time, are also in a democratic development, and the important thing is not to have a very strong position on who they are, but to support and hope that there will also be free elections in the future. We're standing here by the torchlight, hanging outside Grand Hotel, waiting for the balcony doors to open. The torches are burning. There's quite a lot of space here. Yes, there's a lot of space in the hallway, and in the front. The torches are burning everywhere. This is actually a bit stylish, don't you think, Arne? I got to see it. When I got the news that the peace council didn't want to arrange a torchlight this year, I saw that it sounded very sad. But here it's full of people, and not least we're standing up. Are you sad to say that the peace council didn't make a difference in the world at some point? No, I agree. It's worth underlining liberalism as a movement for freedom. Freedom, love, freedom. Is there a large population of Venezuelans in Norway? Are there, in general, amongst the Venezuelans, support for the peace price? Or are you sort of on the other side of that? No, no, no. I am thinking, in general, for most of the opinion in Venezuela. The majority in Venezuela think that this price is very acceptable, in any case. Yes, for sure. It's a good price. It's a good price. It's a deserving nominee. Yes, for sure. It shows that the fighting is still ongoing, and we work with the same target. It's very important for the Venezuelan population. Yes, for sure. Do you have any particular reactions to the counter-demonstrations? Now they're not very present today, but there were some demonstrations yesterday against the nomination. OK, you know, in any case, we have people in favor and people against. It's a normal situation. And that is democracy, when you can accept both sides. It's acceptable, but both sides have to respect the other side. It's the condition for me. It's important, but everybody can think according to his opinion or whatever. But it's OK for me. But now we have other demonstrations that support the celebration for Maria Corina Machado. Yesterday was the other concentration, a parade, for encountering Maria Corina. But this, for me, is democracy. What is your own view on Maria Corina? For sure, Maria is a good leader. She represents all the opinions for Venezuela. Not now, but maybe in the future she will be the president of Venezuela as well. It's important. She is a very good leader and also has keeping the spirit and the target for the most of the Venezuelan population. She is already elected, after all. OK, it's El Mundo González. You're right. It's her proxy. Yes, for sure. Thank you so much. Thank you for giving me the opportunity for talking. Who are you? I am Johan. Johan? Yes. Why are you here today? I have lived in Venezuela. Oh, you have? Yes. That's great. I have lived there when Chavez had power. And I have a good relationship with Venezuela. That's why I say that I am extremely critical of the regime. In your own opinion, for a good reason. Yes, for a very good reason. Can I ask what you think about the demonstrations yesterday? Yes. Do you have any thoughts about that? I have never been to Venezuela and I have never experienced living in such a country. If I had, I would not have participated in such a demonstration. This is a joke. You are very concerned about getting Maria Machado to say that she is keeping a distance from the Americans bombing boats. This is a total detour. Of course she is against it. But it is very difficult for her to express something that is critical today. It's a bit strange to ask people to keep a distance from the Piranhas when there is a shark attacking you. Yes, that's right. In Maduro. Yes. It looks like someone has arrived on the balcony. It's probably the daughter. Yes, it's the daughter. Do you have any relationship with Maria Corinna? Not at all. But do you have any impression of her? I think she is a tough lady. And I think you have to be if you want to be an opponent to the regime. I think she is smart. And I think she is tactically smart. But she is incredibly demanding. So, may I ask what your name is? Ivana. Ivana. So, I stopped by you because you have this beautiful dress in Venezuelan colors. Yes. Very striking. Yes. May I ask why you are here tonight? Yes. Well, I live in Trondheim. I moved from Venezuela in 2009. And I have lived in this beautiful country that has given me education and good working opportunities. But I had to flee my country because of the situation. Not only the political, because what I can say now looking back is that it's not left or right. It's just criminal people against defenseless people. That's what is happening to us. And that's why I had to leave my beautiful country. Because I come from the northeast Venezuela. It's one of the most beautiful areas in the Caribbean. You cannot imagine how beautiful that is. You see the sea and you see the green. Do you have any impression of the Peace Prize winner? Oh, yes. Do you like her? Is she a unifying force for Venezuelans? Or is she polarizing like some people are claiming these days? Well, for me, what I see from her is that she's a relentless fighter for democracy and for liberty. As I say, this is not like polarizing or being from this side or this side. It's defending your freedom against criminals. And she's been fighting for it to a level that is indescribable. She has sacrificed her family, her career opportunities. She's an engineer. She could also leave Venezuela, as I did, and have a nice job in another country, in a free country. A better life. But she sacrificed everything she had for the freedom of Venezuela. She could have chosen differently, but she chose to fight. Yes. And to a level that is out of anyone can imagine. May I ask about your circumstances when you left? What were the direct causes that made you feel like you had to leave? I suffered an express kidnap. So it's like a situation where people take you as a hostage. And then it's not like a long, it's an express kidnap. They have a name for it. So it's like a short term. It's just to take away your car and your credit cards. But for a person like me at the time, it was something horrible. I haven't experienced something like that. And it was becoming worse and worse. The anarchy in Venezuela is unimaginable. Now, what you are describing is back in 2009 and before. No, that was in 2006. Yeah. End of 2005. But that was kind of the beginning for me to say, because I didn't want to leave my country. If I show you the pictures of where I lived in my country, it was a paradise. It's something like, it cannot get better than that. It's the Caribbean part. You have the mountains, you have the beaches. You have all the forests getting into the beach. So it's like the green and the blue combined. It's like something that even when I was born there, I didn't take it for granted. I was thankful every day about where I lived and where I was. And that's not easy to leave behind. No, and I'll grant you, it's worse here. No, Norway is extremely beautiful and scenic. Yeah, but it's cold and wet. It is, but you have the freedom and that doesn't have a price. She thought snow was like 5 Celsius hot. Yeah, I always tell my kids that when I was a little girl, I didn't imagine that. I saw the snow on the TV and I thought it was just such a beautiful thing. Because I was imagining it to be like warm in a way, because I had no idea. I see. Can I ask you one more thing? So 2006, 2009, that's still Chavez. Yes. So it seems you left the country under the rule of Chavez. Yes. And it got too bad while Chavez was running things. Yeah, Chavez destroyed our country. He was the first one destroying our country and setting the fundament for all these disasters that happened afterwards. So that was the plan all along, with Chavez or without him. So the reason I ask is because in the debate in Norway, there's a tendency to say that Chavez meant well. And then Maduro came and everything went to shit. Well, in my opinion, no. In my opinion too. And then the facts back up my opinions also. But it's difficult. So I think the Nobel Prize Committee have done an extremely well job in kind of explaining what happened in Venezuela, how we came to this point. Because it's difficult. It's difficult to explain. For sure. I talked to a Norwegian politician before and he was crystal clear that being against this is madness. Yeah. Because there is no comparison between the two sides here. It's not sizes. It's not sides. It's like being free, having democracy. I have not been to my country in 12 years. Because I'm too afraid. And even when I have lived in Norway for all these years, I still don't feel like I am a free person. And I haven't been in Venezuela since never. Yeah, because you were born here. Yeah. So what's it like for you as the son of a refugee, really? Yeah. And you've grown up here, you've heard the stories from Venezuela, from your native lands? Yeah. My dad is from Oslo, though. Oh. Yeah. But he also lived in Venezuela. Yeah. Your father? Yeah. My father. But the thing is that I want to see us recovering our freedom and democracy so we can at least go on vacation. Yeah. You're going to show your son the country, right? I would be proud to see it, but not in the case now. But now it's... Yeah, now it's... While those criminals are there, we are not going back. Oh. So may I ask your name? David. David. Yeah. So David, as a son of a refugee, in reality, you've been born here. Yeah. You've grown up here. May I ask if you feel sort of more Norwegian or Venezuelan? I feel more Norwegian, yeah. Because that is part of the problem, right, with this crisis? Because I imagine that doesn't feel perfect to you. No, it's... That your son feels Norwegian. The reality is that he has lived his whole life here. But he... But at least I'm doing my best to teach him the language and to teach him the culture. So maybe we can go back. Maybe he can live some years when we recover our freedom. Yeah, get to know the country of your forefathers. And maybe feel more Venezuelan at some point. But it's sort of illustrating the evil of bad regimes. But we are the lucky ones. Yeah. We are the lucky ones that we... In a sense. Yeah. But you're still oppressed. Yeah, it's... You can't go back to where you were born. And your son doesn't even know your country of origin. No, he's only seen the pictures. Yeah, he saw my pictures. Yeah. Yeah. So what are you thinking? May I ask how old you are? Twelve. You're twelve years old. Yeah. So what's your... Do you want to experience Venezuela? Do you want to live there? Do you want to get to know the culture and the language and all of those things? Yeah, I'd like to go to vacation and learn some things. I speak Spanish very well. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. That's very useful too. Yeah. I speak Norwegian. That's completely useless. I speak all three languages that I know very well. Yeah. I mean, you speak perfect English as well. Thank you. So that's awesome. I did not speak more than one and a half languages when I was twelve. Well, I think I learned my third language like around eight or so. Yeah. I don't know. Now your mother is being taken a picture of because of her beautiful dress. Yeah. She has gotten many pictures. Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. And she got interviewed by Swedish television. By Swedish television, yeah. Yeah. I'm actually going to steal a picture of her also before we leave. I do prefer you than Swedish, by the way. Yeah, those Swedes are bad, huh? Yeah. So, do you have anything you'd like to say about Venezuela that we haven't talked about from your perspective? Yeah, I don't like that the regime is autocratic, communist, whatever you'd like to call it. Yeah. So, I'd wish to like go to a vacation there. It seems really nice. So, we're in the crowd with a few people with beautiful Venezuelan flags. Do I take it correctly that you are Venezuelan of origin? Yes, we are. Yes, we are. Do you feel proud tonight? We feel extremely proud tonight. This is an epic moment for us. And I live in Norway. And I am really proud of the Norwegians as well, and Venezuelans, and the whole world is now looking at us in Venezuela. And this is really an important and historical moment for us because we need this attention to finally make things happen towards a democratical change in Venezuela. It is a historical night. The support of the Norwegian Institute for the Noble has been clear. I think there was no space for interpretation in today's speech. And I think that was very important. It was a very beautiful surprise. Sometimes institutes can be more diplomatic. Today they were clear to the point and they went as far as to demand Maduro to step down, accept defeat, accept that he stole the election and let Venezuelans live in peace. I was very positively surprised that Amnesty also were very clear before. Because they have been a little wishy-washy on some things here and there. They have been a little more political than human rights focused, in my opinion. But I also, by accident, talked to a politician in the crowd before. And he was also fully clear about what's right and what's wrong in this situation. So I was pleasantly surprised by that. I think it's been 27 long years. And I think finally everybody is clear. I think that is due to Maria Corina's determination. She is a very straightforward leader. She has never changed her position. She has always led with the truth. And along the way many leaders have come and gone. Maria Corina has always stayed. And she finally got the recognition that she deserved. The Nobel is undoubtedly hers. And also part of every Venezuelan. I've talked to many people today. And they are just eager to tell their little part in the story. And she inspired all of that. I can certainly share in that. Because I've also talked to a few Venezuelans today. And they are unanimous in their support for Maria Corina. Do you guys have any reaction to the sort of counter-demonstrations that took part or happened yesterday? I think it's a space for both sides. But it's important to respect. And when it's facts that are so clear. And they have presented today. As you say, it was clear. No room for interpretation. Then it's just to go to the right side of the story. To be at that part where there is no more room for autocratical and dictatorial regimes. Narco regimes. We don't need that. We need democracy. We need freedom. We need love. It is clear what is the right place to be. And the right side to be in this chapter of the story. I think that they are very privileged to be in a country that allows free speech. And that they were allowed to tell their message. I would invite them to check the facts. And to actually listen to Venezuelans. Instead of buying into misinformation. And it's very easy to be a communist in a free country. Try being free in a communist country. And then we'll talk about it. I like to say that people don't know how is the reality in those countries. That communism is everyday. I call them in Norwegian sofa kommunister. You are out in your sofa and your couch. Just saying, oh this is wonderful. The rigdom. Prosperity. Is distributed equally. No, sorry. It's not. It is a lot of corruption. A lot of things happening that have been shown with facts today. And then it is very easy to talk from a very pleasant place. You just have to travel there and see the real thing. So may I ask, because you live in Norway. Yes. Have you lived here for long? Yes. 25 years. 25 years? Yes. So do you have an impression of the press coverage of Venezuela? Is it fair? Is it biased? Does it give the right picture of how you feel as a Venezuelan? Or are there some pieces missing? Pieces missing the whole way. And that is what is difficult. For example from Venezuela it is difficult because the press is not neutral. All the press is shut down. Controlled by the regime. In Venezuela. In Venezuela. And here you have this conservative or maybe trying to get neutral. And then it is difficult for the people outside the country to understand the magnitude. And then there is a lot of things happening in the world. And we haven't got any attention as we have today. So a lot of things happening and they are prioritized to another wars or another problems in the world. And then right now it is the moment to show what is really happening through the 25 or 27 years up to now. So right now we are really showing the truth of the situation that we have been living for a long time. This is not new. And you feel that Maria Corina is a good representative of the democratic movement in Venezuela? Yes. Totally. And her daughter today, she represents us. People that are really prepared to do the change. And to really just do the right things to have a beautiful free country with property and good values. She represents us. I had this like the demonstrations yesterday. So one of the front figures were one of the high up people in the communist party in Norway. And you know it is quite predictable. But it is also quite pointed that that party supported Chavez and the Maduro regime. And now the peace price goes to the people suppressed by these people. And they demonstrate against it. And then Maria Corina can't really come here on the night because of the danger to her life. It is quite pointed, I have to say. Yes. The day after the price, the first peace, they closed the embassy in Oslo. The Venezuelan embassy in Oslo. After they announced the price. The embassy in Oslo is closed. Maduro's embassy. And that affects a lot of people. Because it is not only for Venezuelans living in Norway. But also people from Finland. They have to come here to do the documentation. And now it is closed. There is only one embassy in the Nordics. In the Nordics. I wasn't aware of that. And then it is closed. The day after. As a protest. Because they are against. That is the way they act. I think Norway acted accordingly. They offered to be part of the negotiation process. They helped arrange for the Barbados agreement. And they managed to not comply with not even one point of that negotiation. I think that made it very clear for Norway. The regime stands on this issue. And I think the Nobel Peace Prize is a result of that as well. It was like the last drop. I think we have been denied justice for the past 27 years. We have gone to the UN. We have gone to the International Court of Justice. We have gone to every instance available. For these things not to happen. And they have all failed us. Today the Nobel recognized our cause. Recognized the suffering of every Venezuelan. And we will be forever grateful. Norway again made history. As you did in World War II. And we will be grateful again for bringing democracy to another part of the world. So that is very beautiful. And I would like to point out that my favorite part of the speech today. Was when Anna Corinna said. We lived in a democracy. We enjoyed the rights. But we forgot our duties. And that is a reminder for every democracy around the world. We love our freedoms. But they come with a lot of responsibilities. And sometimes we take them for granted. I have been positively surprised myself by the Norwegian government. Because like Støre and Bartheide and the foreign minister. Tends to be a little sympathetic to let's say left wing pet causes. So you could suspect that they wouldn't be as clear. And they have been very clear. Which is a relief for me. No doubt. We will be eternally grateful with this. And I would like to point something. For me it is something that goes beyond politics. It is something. It is just about respect, dignity and values. Human freedom. Human freedom. So it is not about politics. And that is the common ground for every one of us. In every country. And that is what we are fighting for. Definitely. I would invite everybody to learn more about Venezuela. We have curiosity. Yes. And I mean this crisis created one of the worst diaspora problems in the world. In the history of the world. And at least something beautiful came out of all that struggle. Because now you see Venezuelans all around the world. And in every corner they shine a light. For freedom. In their jobs. And I think we have all been part of finally getting to here tonight. And that is beautiful. It was worth it. All the sacrifices. Yes. I can say from my perspective. I am very happy for you guys. Thank you. That this happened. And that there wasn't any counter demonstrations or any bullshit. Yes. I was afraid about it. Yes. I was very. And I am happy that didn't happen. And may I ask you one final thing. If anyone wants to follow the situation in Venezuela. From a sort of a neutral perspective. Are there any news sources in English. Or somewhere you should go to seek out this information. Well I would invite them to try to follow local journalists. Obviously they are not in Venezuela anymore. They had to leave. But try to find Venezuelan journalists around the world. That tell the stories of the diaspora. And ask if you meet a Venezuelan. Ask them why they are here. Why they are not back at home. I think the free press has been doing a good job of covering the news lately. I think the Wall Street Journal. I can't remember. I mean definitely not the New York Times. Definitely not. Yes. So try to find local independent media. Or independent journalists. And usually if you are reading a news. Ask are they telling me something. Or are they trying to make me feel something. And if they are trying to make you feel something. It is usually manipulation. So dig deeper. This is sound advice. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. We are still here. Hello again. Hello again. So interesting to hear the stories. So you were telling me about all the people coming from different places. And a couple of you are not really living in Norway. May I ask first where you guys have come from? I have come all the way from Mexico. From Mexico? Yes. Wow. Just from Spain. From Madrid. From Spain. That doesn't count. I know. You should have started with me. Yeah. Bad dream. Bad dream. No. But as me there has been so many other people. I read the news about a person who did a GoFundMe. So she could come all the way here. And she made it. Another person who came from Japan. And had to take many many flights. And a journalist that was awarded the opportunity to come here to cover the news and the event. And we have seen political prisoners. Not only from Venezuela. There is plenty of political prisoners around the world. From Nicaragua. From Nicaragua. I met two from Nicaragua. Many from Venezuela. And also I was very excited. I was a little bit star struck yesterday when I met Masi Alina Jed. And I think her story is amazing. And for her to be here. And what she told us last night. That she had to be here. She had to be with Maria Corina. That was very exciting. So to see the support from all over the place. I just talked to a Japanese reporter. And she came all the way from Japan. And she was also very excited to be here. So every story. Everybody telling us the little bits and pieces that they did. To be able to count all the ballots. There was this man that had to hide the ballots in his wig. Under his wig. And he was so nervous and sweating. And he was like. The ink is going to get ruined. The ink is going to get ruined. And I was like. And these are all the anonymous heroes. And to be able to find all these different pieces. Tell him about the girl who took my hat. So after the speech we were coming back. And she dropped her hat. And then this young lady grabbed it and said. Excuse me ma'am. And she turned around. And she was like. Why are you calling me ma'am? So we started laughing. And then we started talking. Because that's how Venezuelans we are. And then we started talking. And it got serious. She was like. This is so important for me. You can't tell. But my head is covered with bullets. Perdigones we say in Spanish. And she told me her story of being an activist. A student activist. And being persecuted by the regime. And it was just so moving to have her. To have met her. She was there just like one of us. Exactly. She was just here to be present. I think it means so much to so many of us. And it's personal to everyone. How do you guys interpret. That there's a few heads of state from South America. It was Malay. Ecuador. Panama. Honduras. No. Paraguay. And coming here to support the Peace Prize. It seems to me. Happy with that? Yes. That was very important. Not only happy. Grateful. Yes. Very grateful. And also it means a lot. Because the freedom of Venezuela. Means the freedom of the whole continent. When Maduro's regime is over. Because it will be over. Sooner rather than later. Many will fall. I think Nicaragua will fall. Hopefully Cuba will fall. And I think the continent is starting to wake up. And realize the dangers. Of this radical ideology. From my perspective. As a Norwegian. And as a. Let's say an avid watcher of news. And I like Malay. Who doesn't? Okay. You guys are stars in the podcast now. But I mean. There was no one from Nicaragua here. No one from Cuba. No one from Brazil. No one from Colombia. No one from Colombia. First of all. Seems to me. There's a left. Right. Somewhat. Distinction here. Definitely. I mean. It is. It is definitely. There shouldn't be. There shouldn't be. Because this is. This is. More than. This is not. We've said it many times. This is not about left and right. This is about principles and human rights. And there should be. Human rights. Across all political spectrum. We've seen a radicalization of the left. That I find it very dangerous. And it's very hypocritical. When you have. Protesters in a free country. Defending a dictator. Who's oppressing people. In a not free country. So. How do you. How do you go home. And make sense of all of that. So it's obviously. It's not. I don't find it spontaneous. I think it is organized. And paid for. We've seen. Reporting from Nate Friedman. Where he's exposed. Many of the protesters. And. I. I think. That we have to open our eyes. And understand that this is not. This is not spontaneous. This is. This is strategized. So are you. Guys. Because you have. At least you have come really far. You've come a way as well. Spain. Are you staying for a few days. Yeah. Enjoying the city and all that. Until. I will stay until Friday. Just until Friday. Yeah I will stay for a few days. Hopefully we'll be able to see Maria Corina. So we're excited. Yeah I'm staying too. I'm trying to be late. But I haven't seen him yet. Grand Hotel is the place. I'm going to sneak in and see if I can. He's a very interesting. Interesting person really. Quite the character. And he is trying to fix. Fix the communist. Prior. Yeah. I mean. That's the good thing about communists. They make it really easy to fix. Yeah. There you go. It is. There's a smart point there. But this. Is the. The. The overgang. How do you call it. The phase. The transition. The transition is very difficult. Right. From. From. Maybe ruins. You get the country. You have to. Repair it. And it. It takes time. Yeah. It takes some time. So. It. It won't be easy for Maria Corina. To. To. To make the transition. But. She have the support of. The majority. Really. And it. It was shown. In the last presidential. Election. She have the majority. We. If the people. Outside Venezuela. Had the. The. The possibility. Because we didn't have the right to. To. To vote. It will be. Triple. I mean. We had the right to vote. But we weren't allowed. We weren't allowed. Right. Right. We couldn't. They made the impossible. So. What do you. But we were denied. Our right to vote. Right. Yes. Denied the right. That is the. The right. Yeah. So. What do you guys think. Are the chances now. That. The Maduro regime. Will fall. Sooner. Rather than later. And. That. Maria Corina. Will get the opportunity. We do think. That the change. Will come. Soon. But. We have to remember. That this is an urgent. Matter for us. We still have. Yeah. A thousand political prisoners. Being tortured. Every day. So. We need to get them out. As soon as possible. There was this podcast. In Norway. Yesterday. Or the day before. Interviewed a Swede. That had been working. In Venezuela. And working along the opposition. And he made a few claims. That were. Let's say. Eyebrow raising. One of the claims. Was that. A quarter of a million people. Were killed. In Venezuela. And. Not killed by being. Strangled with piano wire. Starved to death. But deliberately. Does that sound. True to you. Does it sound. Plausible. Or does it sound like. Pokerful. Well. I haven't heard that. Podcast. But I. I heard. The title. But. I think it's. A strategy. To. Oppress. People. By. Starving. Doing blackouts. The basics. Are denied. Right. That is a way to. Dominate. Not for party members. No. Never for party members. Of course not. That would be silly. So. That is. That is. Like a. Model. Used in. A lot of country. That one. Want to. How do you call it. The. Control. Control. The people. It will be a zombie society. As I call it. Right. Because. Your basics. Are not. Covered. Then. You don't have. Any. And it. Is like the. The. The. Pyramid. Maslow's. Pyramid. Right. Pyramid. Yeah. When the basics. Are not. Covered. Needs. Then you are. You don't have. Time to. Think. Or. Or like. Fight for your. Your. Rights. Or. Realizations. Or. It's. It's like. The way. To control. Very easy. The way. To control. The. The population. Yeah. Okay. We'll hope. For better times. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But. But.